Discussion Post: The Three Students
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sherlock60This week, the canon story we’re looking at is The Three Students and the chosen topic is University Education.
A few facts:
📖 🖋 Until the nineteenth century there were only two successful university establishments in England and five in Scotland: Oxford (England), Cambridge (England), St. Andrews (Scotland), Glasgow (Scotland), Aberdeen (Scotland), Edinburgh (Scotland) and Marischal College (Scotland. Merged into the University of Aberdeen in 1860.) [Wikipedia]
📖 🖋 ...during the decade between 1855 and 1865 only one in 77,000 [of Britons] went to university. [Richard Brown]
📖 🖋 ...between 1752 and 1886, 51% of Oxford students and 58% of those at Cambridge came from two social groups, the gentry and the clergy. The future careers were even narrower: 64% of Oxford and 54% of Cambridge men went into the Church. [That is, the Church of England.] [Richard Brown]
📖 🖋 For centuries, the ancient universities of Oxford and Cambridge had imposed three barriers to entrance. An applicant had to be 1: male; 2: unmarried; and 3: a member of the Church of England. While 2 and 3 could be evaded with a little cunning, 1 could not.
Non‐sectarian colleges had been opened in London from 1828 onwards, grouped into London University in 1836. Durham University was founded in 1832, Owens College in Manchester in 1851, and Birmingham University in 1900. In 1878 London University admitted women to two colleges, Bedford College, and the Royal Holloway College opened by Queen Victoria in 1886, which was funded by the proceeds of patent medicines. But Oxford and Cambridge held out against women until the next century. [Liza Picard]
📖 🖋 ...a course could cost over £300 per year [which] limited the social composition of courses… As a result many people needed scholarships, the bulk of which were in classics and mathematics. This had an impact [on] the school curriculum and led to a focus on and perpetuation of classical education in grammar and public schools. The provision of fellowships also had a similar effect. Most fellowships were tied to classics at Oxford and mathematics at Cambridge. In this way the whole financial scholarship-fellowship system locked the older subjects into the ancient universities.
This suited colleges that ran like private companies. [As you’re probably aware, the Universities of Oxford and Cambridge are both made up of individual colleges.] They were aware the classics and mathematics were very cheap subjects to teach and did not entail research or expensive equipment or even rapidly growing libraries. The colleges were not only conservative about new subjects for financial reasons; they also feared a tilting of the balance of power in favour of the universities. More university power as, for example, in the building of common science laboratories, meant less college autonomy. [Richard Brown]
📖 🖋 When England had only two universities, Germany had about fifty, intended to train clerics and administrators. . . . Instead of passively acquiring established knowledge, [German] students were expected to learn how to do original research, helped by the new institution of the research seminar. These innovations have fed slowly into British universities... [Ritchie Robertson, Times Literary Supplement (1 October 2010), quoted on The Victorian Web.]
📖 🖋 Advocates of research in the 1860s such as Mark Pattison and Henry Halford Vaughan were influenced by German universities and accepted the discovery of new knowledge as part of their obligations. They wished to move Oxford and Cambridge away from being merely advanced public schools towards a more liberal education with more money on research on the sciences, history and archaeology. This viewpoint inevitably involved a clash with the established college position. [Richard Brown]
📖 🖋 The chief criticism levelled at universities in this period [mid-nineteenth century] was that their neglect of science meant they could contribute little to the needs of industrialisation. Oxford and Cambridge produced clergy, gentlemen and, after 1850, civil servants. They did not appeal to the commercial classes or to the new professions; nor did Durham and Manchester before 1870. Only the London colleges thrived on a close linkage with the new business and professional classes. [Richard Brown]
📖 🖋 In 1848, Cambridge established new tripos [that is, examinations] in Natural Sciences and in Moral Sciences that included history and law. In Oxford two years later, the Schools of Law and Modern history and of Natural Sciences were established.
Since both universities now claimed to teach science to degree level they both built laboratories: the Oxford Museum in 1855 and the New Museum at Cambridge in 1865. The watershed for Oxford and Cambridge came after 1870 with the Cleveland Commission of 1873 leading to the Act of 1877 and the revision of the statutes of colleges. The latter were obliged to release some of their funds for the creation of scientific professorships and university institutions. [Richard Brown]
📖 🖋 From 1850, the ancient universities began a limited reform. Following Royal Commissions for both universities in 1852, an Act for Oxford in 1854 and for Cambridge two years later enabled Nonconformists both to matriculate and to graduate. This solved one problem but created another for graduated Nonconformists were still barred from becoming fellows of colleges throughout the 1860s and [this was] not finally removed until the Universities‘ Religious Tests Act 1871, that also obviated the need for fellows to be ordained clergymen. [Richard Brown]
📖 🖋 The origins of the University of London… were rooted in an open antipathy to the ancient universities and not with any concern to reproduce them. Founded in 1828, it differed from existing institutions in three respects: first, it was free of religious tests and open to nonconformists and unbelievers; secondly, it was to be cheaper than the ancient universities to cater for ‘middling rich people’; and finally, there was a strong emphasis on professional training in the medical, legal, engineering and economic studies neglected at Oxford and Cambridge. [Richard Brown]
📖 🖋 The Apothecaries’ Act 1815 made it illegal to practise as an apothecary unless licensed by the Society of Apothecaries. This stimulated the creation of medical schools to prepare students for the examinations and, from 1831, those of the Royal College of Surgeons. Schools were founded in Manchester (1825), Sheffield (1827), Birmingham (1828), Bristol (1828), Leeds (1830), Liverpool (1834) and Newcastle (1834). [Richard Brown]
📖 🖋 London University... became the first in Britain to allow women students in 1878. By 1880 four women had passed their BA examination there, and in 1881 two women obtained a Bachelor of Science degree. [British Library]
📖 🖋 ...the application of a prospective female medical student, Sophia Jex-Blake, in 1869 to attend lectures at the Edinburgh medical school, caused quite a storm of controversy. ...several other women, on hearing about Sophia Jex-Blake’s fight and the discussions taking place in Edinburgh, came forward as prospective students… despite the efforts of Sophia Jex-Blake and other supporters for women’s education, women, although being allowed to begin medical study in this year, were not permitted to graduate from Edinburgh University at the end of their study… Then in 1873, the Court of Session ruled that the University had the right to refuse the women degrees.
Sophia Jex-Blake moved back to London and established the London School of Medicine for Women in 1874, and later returned to Edinburgh in 1878, setting up practice at Manor Place in the New Town. She also opened a clinic for poor patients, which is now Bruntsfield Hospital. The other members of the ‘Edinburgh Seven’ who had attempted education at Edinburgh, gained their qualifications elsewhere, with the exception of Isabel Thorne, who gave up on her plan to practice as a doctor. Edinburgh University eventually admitted women as undergraduates in 1892, after an Act of Parliament had been passed. [Lynne Wilson]
📖 🖋 [A] significant development was the establishment in 1849 of the first higher education college for women in the UK. The Ladies' College in London's Bedford Square was founded by social reformer and anti-slavery campaigner Elizabeth Jesser Reid. After her death in 1866 it became known as Bedford College and in 1900 it became part of the University of London. [Derek Gillard]
📖 🖋 Higher Education Movement Timeline [regarding higher education for women]
1837 – Queen Victoria comes to the throne. At this time, no higher education institutions are open to women.
1840s – Many single (mainly middle-class) women begin to take positions as governesses.
1848/1849 – Queen’s College and Bedford College open with the aim to educate governesses.
1850s – Emily Davies first gets involved with the Movement by supporting her friend, Elizabeth Garrett, to become the first woman to sit for the medical exam.
1851 – British census reveals a “surplus” of women in comparison to men.
1858-1864 – English Woman’s Journal in publication.
1860s – Davies, Josephine Butler and Barbara Bodichon wrote public reading materials to persuade policy and opinion makers to support the Movement.
1868 – Davies opens Girton (Hitchin) College to the first five women students.
1869 – Endowed Schools Act passed, which granted funding to women’s education.
1870s – Newnham at Cambridge and Lady Margaret & Somerville Halls at Oxford started as residence halls for women students.
1878 – University of London opens all degrees to women
1880s/1890s – B.A. degrees granted at many newer universities throughout Britain.
1919 – University of Oxford grants B.A. degrees to women.
1948 – University of Cambridge grants B.A. degrees to women. [Jessie Sight, Barbara Varanka, Christo Whelan, and Katie Owensby]
📖 🖋 The University of Wales was founded by royal charter in 1893 with the federation of University College Wales (now Aberystwyth University), University College North Wales (now Bangor University) and University College South Wales and Monmouthshire (now Cardiff University). Prior to this, students at these university colleges prepared for examinations of the University of London. [Wikipedia]
📖 🖋 [Civic universities] were distinguished by being non-collegiate (and thus, at the time, non-residential) institutions founded as university colleges that admitted men without reference to religion and concentrated on imparting to their students "real-world" skills, often linked to engineering. All were established as universities by royal charter…
The large civic "red brick" universities all gained official university status before the First World War. The term was first coined by a professor at the University of Liverpool to describe these universities, inspired by the university's Victoria Building which is built from a distinctive red pressed brick. All of the red brick institutions in Great Britain have origins dating back to older medical or engineering colleges which prepared students for University of London external examination; many were also members of the federal Victoria University for a period. [Wikipedia]
📖 🖋 University of Birmingham - achieved university status 1900. The first civic university to be awarded full university status and the first unitary (not collegiate or federal) university in England. [That is, it wasn’t made up of individual colleges like Oxford and Cambridge.] Formed following the merge of Mason Science College (founded 1875) and Queen's College, Birmingham (founded 1828).
Victoria University of Manchester - achieved university status 1903. From merger of Owen's College (constituent college of the Victoria University from 1880) and the Victoria University. Merged with UMIST in 2004 to form the University of Manchester.
University of Liverpool - achieved university status in 1903. Formerly a constituent college of the Victoria University from 1884.
University of Leeds - achieved university status 1904. Formerly a constituent college of the Victoria University from 1887.
University of Sheffield - achieved university status 1905.
Queen's University Belfast - achieved university status 1908. Part of the Queen's University of Ireland 1850–1880 and the Royal University of Ireland 1880–1908.
University of Bristol - achieved university status 1909. [Wikipedia]
Some useful resources:
List of UK universities by date of foundation On Wikipedia.
Education in Victorian England An index of articles on The Victorian Web.
The University of London in Victorian Times An index of articles on The Victorian Web.
Education in Victorian Britain By Liza Picard, on the British Library website.
University College On The Dictionary of Victorian London.
University education 1800-1870 By Richard Brown, on Looking at History.
'Honours for Ladies at the University of London' Published: 1 June 1889 , London. This newspaper article contains a brief autobiographical study of Britain’s first qualified female doctor, Mary Scharlieb… On the British Library website.
The Higher Education of Women in the Victorian Era By Lynne Wilson, on English Historical Fiction Authors.
Higher Education for Women By Jessie Sight, Barbara Varanka, Christo Whelan, and Katie Owensby, on Victorian Contexts.
The Victorian Woman and Education On Welcome to 1876 Victorian England.
The University of Cambridge: The age of reforms (1800-82) Pages 235-265, ed. JPC Roach, originally published by Victoria County History, London, 1959.
Introduction and history On the University of Oxford website.
Education in England: a brief history By Derek Gillard.
Obstacles to social mobility in Britain date back to the Victorian education system By Jonathan Memel, on The Conversation.
19th century beginnings By Dr Lawrence Goldman, in the Department of Continuing Education section of the University of Oxford website.
Women’s access to higher education: An overview (1860-1948) By Claire Jones; with thanks to Steven Rhodes and Vicky Holmes, Archivist, Royal Holloway, University of London. On HerStoria.
The Education of the Victorian Woman An index of Victorian articles on Victorian Voices.
Educating girls 1800-1870 By Richard Brown, on Looking at History.
Women - Education On The Dictionary of Victorian London.
Cambridge — Town and University ‘Victorian and later images’. On The Victorian Web.
The University of Oxford ‘Victorian and later images’. On The Victorian Web.
Please feel free to discuss this topic in the comments.
Please also feel free to comment about the canon story itself or any related aspects outside this week’s theme. For example, any reactions, thoughts, theories, fic recs, favourite adaptations of the canon story… Or any other contribution you wish to make. And if you have any suggestions for fic prompts springing from this week's story, please feel free to share those in the comments as well.
A few facts:
📖 🖋 Until the nineteenth century there were only two successful university establishments in England and five in Scotland: Oxford (England), Cambridge (England), St. Andrews (Scotland), Glasgow (Scotland), Aberdeen (Scotland), Edinburgh (Scotland) and Marischal College (Scotland. Merged into the University of Aberdeen in 1860.) [Wikipedia]
📖 🖋 ...during the decade between 1855 and 1865 only one in 77,000 [of Britons] went to university. [Richard Brown]
📖 🖋 ...between 1752 and 1886, 51% of Oxford students and 58% of those at Cambridge came from two social groups, the gentry and the clergy. The future careers were even narrower: 64% of Oxford and 54% of Cambridge men went into the Church. [That is, the Church of England.] [Richard Brown]
📖 🖋 For centuries, the ancient universities of Oxford and Cambridge had imposed three barriers to entrance. An applicant had to be 1: male; 2: unmarried; and 3: a member of the Church of England. While 2 and 3 could be evaded with a little cunning, 1 could not.
Non‐sectarian colleges had been opened in London from 1828 onwards, grouped into London University in 1836. Durham University was founded in 1832, Owens College in Manchester in 1851, and Birmingham University in 1900. In 1878 London University admitted women to two colleges, Bedford College, and the Royal Holloway College opened by Queen Victoria in 1886, which was funded by the proceeds of patent medicines. But Oxford and Cambridge held out against women until the next century. [Liza Picard]
📖 🖋 ...a course could cost over £300 per year [which] limited the social composition of courses… As a result many people needed scholarships, the bulk of which were in classics and mathematics. This had an impact [on] the school curriculum and led to a focus on and perpetuation of classical education in grammar and public schools. The provision of fellowships also had a similar effect. Most fellowships were tied to classics at Oxford and mathematics at Cambridge. In this way the whole financial scholarship-fellowship system locked the older subjects into the ancient universities.
This suited colleges that ran like private companies. [As you’re probably aware, the Universities of Oxford and Cambridge are both made up of individual colleges.] They were aware the classics and mathematics were very cheap subjects to teach and did not entail research or expensive equipment or even rapidly growing libraries. The colleges were not only conservative about new subjects for financial reasons; they also feared a tilting of the balance of power in favour of the universities. More university power as, for example, in the building of common science laboratories, meant less college autonomy. [Richard Brown]
📖 🖋 When England had only two universities, Germany had about fifty, intended to train clerics and administrators. . . . Instead of passively acquiring established knowledge, [German] students were expected to learn how to do original research, helped by the new institution of the research seminar. These innovations have fed slowly into British universities... [Ritchie Robertson, Times Literary Supplement (1 October 2010), quoted on The Victorian Web.]
📖 🖋 Advocates of research in the 1860s such as Mark Pattison and Henry Halford Vaughan were influenced by German universities and accepted the discovery of new knowledge as part of their obligations. They wished to move Oxford and Cambridge away from being merely advanced public schools towards a more liberal education with more money on research on the sciences, history and archaeology. This viewpoint inevitably involved a clash with the established college position. [Richard Brown]
📖 🖋 The chief criticism levelled at universities in this period [mid-nineteenth century] was that their neglect of science meant they could contribute little to the needs of industrialisation. Oxford and Cambridge produced clergy, gentlemen and, after 1850, civil servants. They did not appeal to the commercial classes or to the new professions; nor did Durham and Manchester before 1870. Only the London colleges thrived on a close linkage with the new business and professional classes. [Richard Brown]
📖 🖋 In 1848, Cambridge established new tripos [that is, examinations] in Natural Sciences and in Moral Sciences that included history and law. In Oxford two years later, the Schools of Law and Modern history and of Natural Sciences were established.
Since both universities now claimed to teach science to degree level they both built laboratories: the Oxford Museum in 1855 and the New Museum at Cambridge in 1865. The watershed for Oxford and Cambridge came after 1870 with the Cleveland Commission of 1873 leading to the Act of 1877 and the revision of the statutes of colleges. The latter were obliged to release some of their funds for the creation of scientific professorships and university institutions. [Richard Brown]
📖 🖋 From 1850, the ancient universities began a limited reform. Following Royal Commissions for both universities in 1852, an Act for Oxford in 1854 and for Cambridge two years later enabled Nonconformists both to matriculate and to graduate. This solved one problem but created another for graduated Nonconformists were still barred from becoming fellows of colleges throughout the 1860s and [this was] not finally removed until the Universities‘ Religious Tests Act 1871, that also obviated the need for fellows to be ordained clergymen. [Richard Brown]
📖 🖋 The origins of the University of London… were rooted in an open antipathy to the ancient universities and not with any concern to reproduce them. Founded in 1828, it differed from existing institutions in three respects: first, it was free of religious tests and open to nonconformists and unbelievers; secondly, it was to be cheaper than the ancient universities to cater for ‘middling rich people’; and finally, there was a strong emphasis on professional training in the medical, legal, engineering and economic studies neglected at Oxford and Cambridge. [Richard Brown]
📖 🖋 The Apothecaries’ Act 1815 made it illegal to practise as an apothecary unless licensed by the Society of Apothecaries. This stimulated the creation of medical schools to prepare students for the examinations and, from 1831, those of the Royal College of Surgeons. Schools were founded in Manchester (1825), Sheffield (1827), Birmingham (1828), Bristol (1828), Leeds (1830), Liverpool (1834) and Newcastle (1834). [Richard Brown]
📖 🖋 London University... became the first in Britain to allow women students in 1878. By 1880 four women had passed their BA examination there, and in 1881 two women obtained a Bachelor of Science degree. [British Library]
📖 🖋 ...the application of a prospective female medical student, Sophia Jex-Blake, in 1869 to attend lectures at the Edinburgh medical school, caused quite a storm of controversy. ...several other women, on hearing about Sophia Jex-Blake’s fight and the discussions taking place in Edinburgh, came forward as prospective students… despite the efforts of Sophia Jex-Blake and other supporters for women’s education, women, although being allowed to begin medical study in this year, were not permitted to graduate from Edinburgh University at the end of their study… Then in 1873, the Court of Session ruled that the University had the right to refuse the women degrees.
Sophia Jex-Blake moved back to London and established the London School of Medicine for Women in 1874, and later returned to Edinburgh in 1878, setting up practice at Manor Place in the New Town. She also opened a clinic for poor patients, which is now Bruntsfield Hospital. The other members of the ‘Edinburgh Seven’ who had attempted education at Edinburgh, gained their qualifications elsewhere, with the exception of Isabel Thorne, who gave up on her plan to practice as a doctor. Edinburgh University eventually admitted women as undergraduates in 1892, after an Act of Parliament had been passed. [Lynne Wilson]
📖 🖋 [A] significant development was the establishment in 1849 of the first higher education college for women in the UK. The Ladies' College in London's Bedford Square was founded by social reformer and anti-slavery campaigner Elizabeth Jesser Reid. After her death in 1866 it became known as Bedford College and in 1900 it became part of the University of London. [Derek Gillard]
📖 🖋 Higher Education Movement Timeline [regarding higher education for women]
1837 – Queen Victoria comes to the throne. At this time, no higher education institutions are open to women.
1840s – Many single (mainly middle-class) women begin to take positions as governesses.
1848/1849 – Queen’s College and Bedford College open with the aim to educate governesses.
1850s – Emily Davies first gets involved with the Movement by supporting her friend, Elizabeth Garrett, to become the first woman to sit for the medical exam.
1851 – British census reveals a “surplus” of women in comparison to men.
1858-1864 – English Woman’s Journal in publication.
1860s – Davies, Josephine Butler and Barbara Bodichon wrote public reading materials to persuade policy and opinion makers to support the Movement.
1868 – Davies opens Girton (Hitchin) College to the first five women students.
1869 – Endowed Schools Act passed, which granted funding to women’s education.
1870s – Newnham at Cambridge and Lady Margaret & Somerville Halls at Oxford started as residence halls for women students.
1878 – University of London opens all degrees to women
1880s/1890s – B.A. degrees granted at many newer universities throughout Britain.
1919 – University of Oxford grants B.A. degrees to women.
1948 – University of Cambridge grants B.A. degrees to women. [Jessie Sight, Barbara Varanka, Christo Whelan, and Katie Owensby]
📖 🖋 The University of Wales was founded by royal charter in 1893 with the federation of University College Wales (now Aberystwyth University), University College North Wales (now Bangor University) and University College South Wales and Monmouthshire (now Cardiff University). Prior to this, students at these university colleges prepared for examinations of the University of London. [Wikipedia]
📖 🖋 [Civic universities] were distinguished by being non-collegiate (and thus, at the time, non-residential) institutions founded as university colleges that admitted men without reference to religion and concentrated on imparting to their students "real-world" skills, often linked to engineering. All were established as universities by royal charter…
The large civic "red brick" universities all gained official university status before the First World War. The term was first coined by a professor at the University of Liverpool to describe these universities, inspired by the university's Victoria Building which is built from a distinctive red pressed brick. All of the red brick institutions in Great Britain have origins dating back to older medical or engineering colleges which prepared students for University of London external examination; many were also members of the federal Victoria University for a period. [Wikipedia]
📖 🖋 University of Birmingham - achieved university status 1900. The first civic university to be awarded full university status and the first unitary (not collegiate or federal) university in England. [That is, it wasn’t made up of individual colleges like Oxford and Cambridge.] Formed following the merge of Mason Science College (founded 1875) and Queen's College, Birmingham (founded 1828).
Victoria University of Manchester - achieved university status 1903. From merger of Owen's College (constituent college of the Victoria University from 1880) and the Victoria University. Merged with UMIST in 2004 to form the University of Manchester.
University of Liverpool - achieved university status in 1903. Formerly a constituent college of the Victoria University from 1884.
University of Leeds - achieved university status 1904. Formerly a constituent college of the Victoria University from 1887.
University of Sheffield - achieved university status 1905.
Queen's University Belfast - achieved university status 1908. Part of the Queen's University of Ireland 1850–1880 and the Royal University of Ireland 1880–1908.
University of Bristol - achieved university status 1909. [Wikipedia]
Some useful resources:
List of UK universities by date of foundation On Wikipedia.
Education in Victorian England An index of articles on The Victorian Web.
The University of London in Victorian Times An index of articles on The Victorian Web.
Education in Victorian Britain By Liza Picard, on the British Library website.
University College On The Dictionary of Victorian London.
University education 1800-1870 By Richard Brown, on Looking at History.
'Honours for Ladies at the University of London' Published: 1 June 1889 , London. This newspaper article contains a brief autobiographical study of Britain’s first qualified female doctor, Mary Scharlieb… On the British Library website.
The Higher Education of Women in the Victorian Era By Lynne Wilson, on English Historical Fiction Authors.
Higher Education for Women By Jessie Sight, Barbara Varanka, Christo Whelan, and Katie Owensby, on Victorian Contexts.
The Victorian Woman and Education On Welcome to 1876 Victorian England.
The University of Cambridge: The age of reforms (1800-82) Pages 235-265, ed. JPC Roach, originally published by Victoria County History, London, 1959.
Introduction and history On the University of Oxford website.
Education in England: a brief history By Derek Gillard.
Obstacles to social mobility in Britain date back to the Victorian education system By Jonathan Memel, on The Conversation.
19th century beginnings By Dr Lawrence Goldman, in the Department of Continuing Education section of the University of Oxford website.
Women’s access to higher education: An overview (1860-1948) By Claire Jones; with thanks to Steven Rhodes and Vicky Holmes, Archivist, Royal Holloway, University of London. On HerStoria.
The Education of the Victorian Woman An index of Victorian articles on Victorian Voices.
Educating girls 1800-1870 By Richard Brown, on Looking at History.
Women - Education On The Dictionary of Victorian London.
Cambridge — Town and University ‘Victorian and later images’. On The Victorian Web.
The University of Oxford ‘Victorian and later images’. On The Victorian Web.
Please feel free to discuss this topic in the comments.
Please also feel free to comment about the canon story itself or any related aspects outside this week’s theme. For example, any reactions, thoughts, theories, fic recs, favourite adaptations of the canon story… Or any other contribution you wish to make. And if you have any suggestions for fic prompts springing from this week's story, please feel free to share those in the comments as well.
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no subject
Date: 2017-03-05 01:21 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2017-03-05 02:37 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2017-03-05 02:55 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2017-03-05 03:03 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2017-03-05 03:07 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2017-03-05 03:15 pm (UTC)And art and math!
no subject
Date: 2017-03-05 03:35 pm (UTC)Learn more about LiveJournal Ratings in FAQ (https://www.dreamwidth.org/support/faqbrowse?faqid=303).
no subject
Date: 2017-03-05 11:47 pm (UTC)I don't think we have got the balance right, re higher education, even now.
no subject
Date: 2017-03-06 12:26 am (UTC)I don't think we have got the balance right, re higher education, even now. Me neither. Haven't the foggiest what the answer is though.
no subject
Date: 2017-03-09 05:14 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2017-03-09 05:37 pm (UTC)Also, the sources above don't seem to mention (although maybe I just haven't found it yet), that the 1873 court ruling that the university was within its rights to deny them graduation, also ruled that the university should never have allowed them to matriculate in the first place. Whether that was a "if you're not going to let them graduate, then you shouldn't let them matriculate in the first place" scolding, or a legal assertion that female students are not permitted to attend the university, isn't clear to me. (On This Day in Soctland: The Edinburgh Seven)
no subject
Date: 2017-03-09 05:47 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2017-03-09 06:04 pm (UTC)ANYWAY. What I wanted to talk about, before I started rambling, was that this discussion is very interesting for those of us who have spent far too many hours trying to make sense of Moriarty's academic credentials and career. It never made much sense to me that he's a mathematician (most mathematicians aspire to nothing more than paper, a pencil, and a cloistered cell free of interruptions), but if the bulk of scholarships were in mathematics and classics, then his focus on mathematics suddenly becomes far more practical. (Especially once one takes his implied Irish background into account, yeah?) Likewise, the note in FINA about Moriarty having a chair at "one of our smaller universities": it would have been the smaller universities, and only the smaller universities, who got their hands dirty with business and industry and other opportunities to make a profit, legal or otherwise.
no subject
Date: 2017-03-09 07:31 pm (UTC)Fascinating information.
no subject
Date: 2017-03-09 07:33 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2017-03-09 10:39 pm (UTC)That is so interesting about Moriarty - I hadn't thought about applying this post's information to him. I wonder if the first Sherlock Holmes readers would have automatically understood this - mathematics was just the sort of thing students studied to get scholarships and wasn't meant to be too personally significant. And yes, 'Moriarty' is an Irish Catholic surname. So whether he was actually Irish or a Briton whose ancestors were Irish, he very likely would have been Catholic, which it seems would have limited his options.
no subject
Date: 2017-03-11 09:02 pm (UTC)(Okay, I maybe once did mention LION and also Doyle's multiple attempts to get rid of Holmes to my high school students who had been assigned a reading comp exercise about Doyle's spiritualism, but it was fleeting! It was early on a Saturday morning, they were falling asleep, and those two things are always good for a laugh.)
I did not connect that Moriarty might well have been Catholic, but yes, that fits, too!
:: I wonder if the first Sherlock Holmes readers would have automatically understood this... ::
My guess is probably yes, although possibly more in a pattern-observation way. "Smaller universities" surprised me when I read it, because that whole paragraph was about how impressive Moriarty is, why did Doyle suddenly back off and put Moriarty at an obscure institution, rather than unnamed-but-significant? But I wouldn't be at all surprised if a number of Victorian readers would have nodded at that detail: people named Moriarty don't end up at Oxbridge, after all, and people who like to muck about with money and power don't end up there, either. Whereas I, being an American, was imagining him at the English equivalent of a back-of-nowhere cow college!
no subject
Date: 2017-03-12 05:34 pm (UTC)But I wouldn't be at all surprised if a number of Victorian readers would have nodded at that detail: people named Moriarty don't end up at Oxbridge, after all, and people who like to muck about with money and power don't end up there, either. Makes perfect sense to me. And I suppose when Moriarty was professor, all of the British universities of whatever size would have had some prestige - attending university was still not something for the average person.