Canon Discussion: The Copper Beeches
Jan. 5th, 2014 10:24 am![[identity profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/openid.png){kind=small}
scfrankles.livejournal.com posting in ![[community profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/community.png){kind=small}
sherlock60This week we’re looking at The Adventure of the Copper Beeches. I’ve typed up a few thoughts to get the discussion going.
…the long cherry-wood pipe which was wont to replace his clay when he was in a disputatious rather than a meditative mood… I wonder does Holmes know that he’s using different pipes during different moods. Or has Watson being doing a little observation of his own? Writing a monograph on the many mood-pipes of Sherlock Holmes…
"I confess that it is not the situation which I should like to see a sister of mine apply for." I’m currently reading Arthur Conan Doyle: a life in letters, which mentions that two of ACD’s sisters worked as governesses. I don’t suppose Holmes has or has had sisters – he’s just expressing brotherly concern for Miss Hunter – but you have to wonder. There’s a seven year gap between the Holmes brothers and they were born at a time of high infant mortality. Was there a child or children in between?
It was a cold morning of the early spring… "It is half-past ten now."
”…I shall write to Mr. Rucastle at once, sacrifice my poor hair to-night, and start for Winchester to-morrow." With a few grateful words to Holmes she bade us both good-night and bustled off upon her way.
I hadn’t noticed this before the New Annotated pointed it out, but Miss Hunter arrives in the morning and then departs in the evening. Obviously a very long conversation indeed.
More than once I have surprised her in tears. Why is Mrs Rucastle so sorrowful? Is it guilt or the stress of the situation? She seems to take an active role though in using Miss Hunter as a stand-in for her stepdaughter. By the way, I always catch myself thinking that Alice is the stepdaughter of Rucastle, when she is of course his actual daughter. Somehow this makes the situation even more repulsive, that a man should treat his own daughter that way.
’And if you ever put your foot over that threshold again'--here in an instant the smile hardened into a grin of rage, and he glared down at me with the face of a demon--'I'll throw you to the mastiff.' Why doesn’t Rucastle simply sack Miss Hunter? In fact, I don’t know why he hasn’t already dismissed her – they don’t seem to need her as a decoy any more. They’re keeping a stranger in the house who is becoming more and more curious about what is going on, and might at any moment discover the truth.
"But it is impossible," said Miss Hunter; "the ladder was not there when the Rucastles went away." It seems odd that Holmes should jump to the conclusion that Rucastle has abducted his daughter through the skylight when all the man had to do was unlock the door.
"Better close the front door," cried Holmes, and we all rushed down the stairs together. Part of the charm of this story for me is that Miss Hunter is almost an equal partner in the mystery with Holmes and Watson. She’s not just the client who introduces them to the case.
”…Mr. Fowler being a persevering man, as a good seaman should be…” How does Holmes deduce Fowler is a seaman? He hasn’t met him to be able to observe him, and I can’t spot any other clues.
The child, Edward, is not mentioned at the end of the story. In the New Annotated there is the suggestion (perhaps not entirely seriously meant) that Edward was a werewolf and had been Carlo the dog. (I’m sorry – no.) But I wonder if perhaps Mr and Mrs Fowler may have adopted him. We don’t know how close Alice was to her little brother (and he seems to be a truly revolting child) but she might be reluctant to leave him in the care of a couple who had imprisoned her, even if they are his parents.
…Holmes, rather to my disappointment, manifested no further interest in her when once she had ceased to be the centre of one of his problems… Watson, bless him – he’s such a hopeless romantic. The first time I read this story that statement caught me by surprise. I must admit that I can’t see any romantic or sexual attraction between Holmes and Miss Hunter. It seems to be just a mutual admiration between two intelligent people. I think the two of them are alike in many ways (Miss Hunter is determined to discover the solution to the mystery, even though she’s in danger), including the fact that neither is the kind of person to get married.
And that concludes the first ten weeks of the current schedule. Next week, Sun, 12th Jan, will be The Stock-broker’s Clerk.
Well, I’ve got to be realistic here: we’re not going to get any more members now. Er,![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-userinfo.gif)
thesmallhobbit, are you stopping or..? Because if I'm going to be the only member posting regularly, I may think about knocking the intro and discussion posts on the head.
Could you let me know how you feel..?
…the long cherry-wood pipe which was wont to replace his clay when he was in a disputatious rather than a meditative mood… I wonder does Holmes know that he’s using different pipes during different moods. Or has Watson being doing a little observation of his own? Writing a monograph on the many mood-pipes of Sherlock Holmes…
"I confess that it is not the situation which I should like to see a sister of mine apply for." I’m currently reading Arthur Conan Doyle: a life in letters, which mentions that two of ACD’s sisters worked as governesses. I don’t suppose Holmes has or has had sisters – he’s just expressing brotherly concern for Miss Hunter – but you have to wonder. There’s a seven year gap between the Holmes brothers and they were born at a time of high infant mortality. Was there a child or children in between?
It was a cold morning of the early spring… "It is half-past ten now."
”…I shall write to Mr. Rucastle at once, sacrifice my poor hair to-night, and start for Winchester to-morrow." With a few grateful words to Holmes she bade us both good-night and bustled off upon her way.
I hadn’t noticed this before the New Annotated pointed it out, but Miss Hunter arrives in the morning and then departs in the evening. Obviously a very long conversation indeed.
More than once I have surprised her in tears. Why is Mrs Rucastle so sorrowful? Is it guilt or the stress of the situation? She seems to take an active role though in using Miss Hunter as a stand-in for her stepdaughter. By the way, I always catch myself thinking that Alice is the stepdaughter of Rucastle, when she is of course his actual daughter. Somehow this makes the situation even more repulsive, that a man should treat his own daughter that way.
’And if you ever put your foot over that threshold again'--here in an instant the smile hardened into a grin of rage, and he glared down at me with the face of a demon--'I'll throw you to the mastiff.' Why doesn’t Rucastle simply sack Miss Hunter? In fact, I don’t know why he hasn’t already dismissed her – they don’t seem to need her as a decoy any more. They’re keeping a stranger in the house who is becoming more and more curious about what is going on, and might at any moment discover the truth.
"But it is impossible," said Miss Hunter; "the ladder was not there when the Rucastles went away." It seems odd that Holmes should jump to the conclusion that Rucastle has abducted his daughter through the skylight when all the man had to do was unlock the door.
"Better close the front door," cried Holmes, and we all rushed down the stairs together. Part of the charm of this story for me is that Miss Hunter is almost an equal partner in the mystery with Holmes and Watson. She’s not just the client who introduces them to the case.
”…Mr. Fowler being a persevering man, as a good seaman should be…” How does Holmes deduce Fowler is a seaman? He hasn’t met him to be able to observe him, and I can’t spot any other clues.
The child, Edward, is not mentioned at the end of the story. In the New Annotated there is the suggestion (perhaps not entirely seriously meant) that Edward was a werewolf and had been Carlo the dog. (I’m sorry – no.) But I wonder if perhaps Mr and Mrs Fowler may have adopted him. We don’t know how close Alice was to her little brother (and he seems to be a truly revolting child) but she might be reluctant to leave him in the care of a couple who had imprisoned her, even if they are his parents.
…Holmes, rather to my disappointment, manifested no further interest in her when once she had ceased to be the centre of one of his problems… Watson, bless him – he’s such a hopeless romantic. The first time I read this story that statement caught me by surprise. I must admit that I can’t see any romantic or sexual attraction between Holmes and Miss Hunter. It seems to be just a mutual admiration between two intelligent people. I think the two of them are alike in many ways (Miss Hunter is determined to discover the solution to the mystery, even though she’s in danger), including the fact that neither is the kind of person to get married.
And that concludes the first ten weeks of the current schedule. Next week, Sun, 12th Jan, will be The Stock-broker’s Clerk.
Well, I’ve got to be realistic here: we’re not going to get any more members now. Er,
thesmallhobbit, are you stopping or..? Because if I'm going to be the only member posting regularly, I may think about knocking the intro and discussion posts on the head. Could you let me know how you feel..?
![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
no subject
Date: 2014-01-05 04:43 pm (UTC)A few passing thoughts about a few of your points:
The 'come early, leave late'...I can't find the 'half past ten' in my copy. I admit I think the likeliest explanation is Watson put 'good night' instead of 'goodbye'. But he could have elided two conversations. I admit the thought of them in the flat all day isn't very convincing. (*cough* whatever they were doing).
Of why Rucastle doesn't just sack Violet. Actually, that is rather the same way he treats his daughter. He dislikes the short term consequences of losing her money, so does something which has worse long term consequences. He dislikes the thought of Miss Hunter tellings tales about him, so looms on the verge of making her a prisoner, too. He treats Carlos the same way. Starving a watch dog, besides making him weaker and sleepier, and more vulnerable to drugged meat, means he's not going to stay around watching. I bet Carlos spent most of the nights rummaging through neighbours' leavings.
Must say I agree with I like the way Holmes and Hunter work together.
I'd rather think leaving her horrible little half brother (I bet they were both most conscious of the half) behind was a very positive inducement to matrimony for Alice. I admit, I think hee did stay with his parents, and became a horible person in his own right, but I'll be delighted to find any reason to think otherwise.
Slash fans skip this: I think Watson's trying to ship Holmes and Violet was part of the well known secret International Married Persons' Conspiracy. He was happy married, so he thought Holmes would be, too.
no subject
Date: 2014-01-05 04:50 pm (UTC)"half past ten" is said by Watson just after he has read the first note from Violet.
I like your interpretation of why Rucastly behaves as he does. It all ties in with the sort of person he is.
no subject
Date: 2014-01-05 07:25 pm (UTC)I like reading your ideas as well, and am glad to hear you're continuing.
no subject
Date: 2014-01-05 10:24 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2014-01-05 07:38 pm (UTC)That is an excellent character study for Rucastle. You make some very good points. Are you sure you won't try writing stories..? ^^" And if you ever want to write a discussion post, feel free ^^ I'm not hinting, or trying to put the work onto you - I do like writing the discussions - but if you ever feel like you want to have a go, just let me know in advance and I will step aside that week ^_^
I suppose you might have a slightly different version of the story - that's one of the things that's talked about in the New Annotated: different edits. I finally found out why another story in my collection has the same opening as The Cardboard Box ^^ And as I said, that's an excellent explanation of Rucastle's behaviour. Also, I think probably you're right about Edward staying with his parents - I suppose there wouldn't have been a strong bond between the two half-siblings. I hope it wasn't inevitable that he would grow up into an unpleasant person. After all, Alice had the same unpleasant father.
no subject
Date: 2014-01-05 07:56 pm (UTC)Of Edward...he probably wasn't happy. He might have thought of his sister's escape through the years, and admired her husband, and finally escaped himself.
I would never be able to write half as good a discussion post as you. I like them being meta, but I also like them being well written meta, and that's up to you. (Though I bet the smallhobbit could do a good pinch hit.)
no subject
Date: 2014-01-05 04:46 pm (UTC)It's things like Violet's all day stay at Baker Street that make me wonder why I try to ensure my writings make sense. Or at least if they don't I can always say "It was good enough for ACD".
And I do like reading all your thoughts on the stories, but obviously it's up to you whether you want to post anything.
no subject
Date: 2014-01-05 07:20 pm (UTC)To be fair to ACD, I am generally blissfully unaware of these little slips. He's such a good storyteller that I get caught up and simply don't notice ^^
no subject
Date: 2014-01-05 10:21 pm (UTC)And I've found myself a new icon in honour of my continued participation.
no subject
Date: 2014-01-05 10:29 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2014-01-05 10:47 pm (UTC)