Discussion Post: The Five Orange Pips

[spacemutineer.livejournal.com]

Hello, again! This week, we have The Five Orange Pips: a case gone wrong, and we are left with a pile of unanswered questions. As always, here are a few questions and thoughts to get you started. Please add your own!

- Do you find it interesting Holmes makes a point to mention the sex of those who have bested him? Why do you think he did that?

- Holmes loses another client and we have to have a discussion about culpability. I don't think you can absolve Holmes for this one. John Openshaw should never have left 221B once he arrived there. There was every reason to believe the KKK were on their way to get him imminently. He'd already waited too long. But Holmes sends him out into the storm, alone but "armed" (as if that means something to these people), saying he'll look into it tomorrow. Holmes allows his client in known imminent mortal danger to walk out of Holmes' own, safe home into the rain and the night and his death. What does that mean for him and to him? Do you think Watson would blame Holmes at all?

- Once the inevitable happened, what did you think of Holmes' reaction to the news? Is this Watson's first time witnessing Holmes lose a client? How analogous is this to Watson losing a patient?

- FIVE is a sad one for an American reader. There are some of the ugliest parts of American history on display here. In my notes, upon seeing the first "K. K. K." reference, I wrote: "Surely not THAT KKK... right?" Oh yes, it's that KKK. *sigh*

- What do you think of it being the Ku Klux Klan? Were you surprised? For a literary criticism question: Would you have preferred Doyle use a fictional gang here instead or do you like the way the KKK's reputation (whenever and wherever the story is read) colors the narrative? Why or why not?

Comments

[wytchcroft.livejournal.com]

i'd be interested to know the KKK's reputation (in the UK especially) at the time
(that reputation was far from static during the late 19th/early 20th century) -
since Doyle clearly felt no qualms about using the name - which i don't think he would have if this had been a later story (comp The Red Circle, Valley of Fear etc.).

it does add weight.

the whole story pairs up nicely with The Dancing Men for it's tragic nature and American links - and Holmes' attitude in that story is surely coloured by his experience here?

[spacemutineer.livejournal.com]

I wondered about how much was known of the KKK then and even now outside the US.

Interesting point about the Dancing Men having an American connection as well. I hadn't thought of that. Odd coincidence there. Holmes' reaction to client deaths are always fascinating too. It's a line he would have to constantly walk with his often imperiled clientele.

[wytchcroft.livejournal.com]

ha! yes, one of Holmes' many quirks -
like his habit of letting the perpetrator walk free! :)

[thesmallhobbit.livejournal.com]

I knew as soon as I read KKK who it referred to, and I can remember hearing about them as a child, many years ago, so I think it's safe to assume that there has been a general awareness of them over here. Can't however comment on the late 19th century!

[castiron.livejournal.com]

Would Valley of Fear fit with these too?

[thesmallhobbit.livejournal.com]

What struck me in particular was that Holmes said it hurt his pride. His mistake led to a man's death and his pride was hurt.

To me this would be very different to Watson losing a patient, which would of course happen. But from what we've seen he would do his best for his patients and the death would be more likely due to the inability of a doctor to save rather than lack of thought. Here Holmes seems to see everything as an intellectual problem rather than a man's life.

[castiron.livejournal.com]

Is that actually what Holmes feels, though, or is it simply what he's willing to admit to? (Given Holmes's general personality, I can see either interpretation -- "he really doesn't care that Openshaw's dead, he cares about his own failure" or "he's utterly horrified by the death, but he's too stiff-upper-lip to admit it, so he disguises his shock in a comment on his wounded pride".)

[thesmallhobbit.livejournal.com]

I can understand disguising the shock and to a point I think he was horrified by the death. But his behaviour after that speaks more of trying to regain his pride than of remorse at a mistake.

[spacemutineer.livejournal.com]

This is precisely what I got off it too. It's such a moment of horror. I think it's not so much that the pride comments are lies, because I'm sure that's part of it, Holmes being Holmes. But I think he feels the pain of it more than he would like, which he sublimates into pure vengeance.

[wytchcroft.livejournal.com]

it's those nuances that allow so many excellent yet differently shaded performances by those playing Holmes. Brett saying 'Pride' and Merrison saying 'Pride' (for example) would be very different...

[castiron.livejournal.com]

The sexes: I'm sure there's a component of "see, even a woman has bested me" in that, given Holmes's attitude towards women and the general attitude of the times.

If Watson blames Holmes for letting Openshaw go to his death, he likely blames himself as well -- why didn't *he* speak up and say "under the circumstances, perhaps it would be better if you stayed here and let us accompany you home tomorrow"?

As I'm a native and lifelong Southerner, the use of the KKK absolutely works for me; it triggers the "OMG this man is in *danger*" reaction that a generic gang would not. (Though that also means I'm more dissatisfied when the perpetrators aren't hauled into court at the end. I want to see those bastards PAY in a way I wouldn't if it were just a fictional gang.)

[spacemutineer.livejournal.com]

I don't know that Watson as he portrays himself in these stories would defy Holmes' judgement to suggest Openshaw should stay the night. Watson usually just goes along for whatever ride Holmes has in store for him/everyone else, good or bad. But I would not be surprised if he laid some of the blame at his own feet regardless.

Oh, yeah, I agree completely on the KKK. For any American (let alone a Southerner!), they evoke such an instant, visceral revulsion. I wish Holmes could have gotten his hands on them too. Death at sea is much too simple for monsters like these.

Sunday, 31st October, 2011

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