Canon Discussion: The Illustrious Client
Feb. 14th, 2016 08:01 am![[identity profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/openid.png){kind=small}
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sherlock60This week we’re having a look at The Illustrious Client. I’ve typed up a few thoughts and questions to get the discussion going—please leave your own ideas in the comments!
I’ll just mention that the last discussion for ILLU led to some brilliant comments, so if you’re interested, it’s well worth reading the whole thing. But I will be referring to some of the points raised in this discussion too.
On the upper floor of the Northumberland Avenue establishment there is an isolated corner where two couches lie side by side, and it was on these that we lay upon September 3, 1902, the day when my narrative begins. I have to say that this story has rather a melancholy feel for me. Holmes and Watson’s friendship is intact but they are no longer living together. The opening scene has a rather intimate setting but at the same time they are on neutral territory—it perhaps emphasises that Baker Street is no longer Watson’s home. And Holmes spends more of the case with Shinwell Johnson and Miss Winter than with Watson.
I was living in my own rooms in Queen Anne Street at the time… Why has Watson moved out? Is he getting married again, as Holmes seems to tell us in BLAN?
“...the living Colonel Sebastian Moran…”![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-userinfo.gif)
winryweiss brought up this excellent point last time—how can Moran still be alive, about eight and a half years after being arrested for the murder of Ronald Adair? Surely he would have been hanged, wouldn’t he? I personally can't see any extenuating circumstances. The only possibility I could think of is that there wasn't enough evidence to convict Moran of Ronald Adair's murder, so it was decided to put Moran on trial for Holmes' attempted murder. Moran would have got a long prison sentence but wouldn't have been hanged for that crime. (The last hanging for attempted murder in England was in 1861—that was the year the law was changed.)
winryweiss did suggest though that Watson’s date for ILLU might be wrong. Is it possible that this story actually takes place a lot closer to EMPT? But then why is Watson living in Queen Anne Street, rather than at his and Mary’s marital home or at Baker Street? winryweiss also suggested the possibility that Moran’s execution might have been delayed if there were other crimes he had been accused of. Must admit I don’t know anything about Victorian law. Would an execution have been delayed for over 8 years..?
“The villain attached himself to the lady, and with such effect that he has completely and absolutely won her heart.” Why does Gruner want to marry Miss de Merville? He doesn’t love her—he talks about controlling her with hypnotism. And presumably he’s not that interested in her money—he’s a rich man himself. Is it just that whenever he wants a woman, he gets her by any means possible? (As Holmes says: “He has the collection mania in its most acute form…”) And for a woman of Miss de Merville’s position and personality, that has to be marriage. Then when he wants to get rid of her, he’ll murder her like his first wife.
Johnson, I grieve to say, made his name first as a very dangerous villain and served two terms at Parkhurst. Finally he repented and allied himself to Holmes… Why did Shinwell Johnson repent and ally himself to Holmes? It doesn’t seem to have improved his life in any way—he’s still part of the criminal underworld. As Miss Winter says: "Hell, London, gets me every time. Same address for Porky Shinwell.”
I had some pressing professional business of my own… What professional business? Was Watson perhaps in the process of buying a new practice?
“You have heard of post-hypnotic suggestion. Mr. Holmes? Well, you will see how it works, for a man of personality can use hypnotism without any vulgar passes or tomfoolery.” Has Gruner genuinely hypnotised Miss de Merville? Asvaysh pointed out last time, nobody tries to undo the hypnotic suggestion. Holmes certainly only tries to appeal to Miss de Merville’s rationality.
“But what I am Adelbert Gruner made me.” I assume that Gruner took Miss Winter’s virginity and reputation, and when she left him, she became a prostitute. That’s bad enough, but there must be more to it. At her trial, such extenuating circumstances came out in the trial that the sentence, as will be remembered, was the lowest that was possible for such an offence.
vaysh came up with some fascinating thoughts last time (I hope she won’t mind if I quote her comments here): I was quite intrigued by this story - dealing with sexual violence against women, I think, even when it is never directly spelled out. I am sure Doyle's contemporaries, though, understood that Gruner is supposed to be sadist who not only takes women's virginity but rapes, tortures and mutilates them to satisfy his own perverted sexual pleasures...
The descriptions of the effect of the vitriol on Gruner's face are described horribly - it's extremely well written. I don't think many people can read this scene without flinching and feeling the utter pain and horror that Gruner must have felt. Doyle emphasises it by having Gruner reach for Watson to help him. I did feel sympathy for him, in this moment...
But I don't think that was actually Doyle's intention. The story clearly is written in a way that is supposed to make us despise Gruner. But Doyle, a soundly Victorian writer, couldn't describe what the man did to the women he tortured, not in 1924...
It may that in an odd reversal of victim and perpetrator, Conan Doyle did try to bring across what great harm had been done to the women, by highlighting Gruner's suffering of the same deeds so emphatically.
laurose8 also suggested that Miss Winter may have experienced great pain through an illegal abortion—and I added to that that Gruner may have forced her to have the abortion.
“The first thing is to exaggerate my injuries. They'll come to you for news. Put it on thick, Watson.” Has Holmes learnt his lesson after DYIN and FINA? He trusts Watson to act the part of worried friend, rather than misleading him and having him play the part for real.
But then we also have: There was a curious secretive streak in the man which led to many dramatic effects, but left even his closest friend guessing as to what his exact plans might be. Shouldn’t Holmes have told Watson what was going on? Watson has no idea he’s supposed to be keeping Gruner busy for as long as possible while Holmes burgles the place.
Three days later appeared a paragraph in the Morning Post to say that the marriage between Baron Adelbert Gruner and Miss Violet de Merville would not take place. What of Miss de Merville’s future? I would imagine finding out the truth about Gruner would shake her pretty badly. And what is Gruner’s future? He’s blinded and disfigured but he’s also rich and charming. Will he continue to prey on women?
Next Sunday, 21st February, we’ll be having a look at The Three Gables. Hope you can join us then.
I’ll just mention that the last discussion for ILLU led to some brilliant comments, so if you’re interested, it’s well worth reading the whole thing. But I will be referring to some of the points raised in this discussion too.
On the upper floor of the Northumberland Avenue establishment there is an isolated corner where two couches lie side by side, and it was on these that we lay upon September 3, 1902, the day when my narrative begins. I have to say that this story has rather a melancholy feel for me. Holmes and Watson’s friendship is intact but they are no longer living together. The opening scene has a rather intimate setting but at the same time they are on neutral territory—it perhaps emphasises that Baker Street is no longer Watson’s home. And Holmes spends more of the case with Shinwell Johnson and Miss Winter than with Watson.
I was living in my own rooms in Queen Anne Street at the time… Why has Watson moved out? Is he getting married again, as Holmes seems to tell us in BLAN?
“...the living Colonel Sebastian Moran…”
winryweiss brought up this excellent point last time—how can Moran still be alive, about eight and a half years after being arrested for the murder of Ronald Adair? Surely he would have been hanged, wouldn’t he? I personally can't see any extenuating circumstances. The only possibility I could think of is that there wasn't enough evidence to convict Moran of Ronald Adair's murder, so it was decided to put Moran on trial for Holmes' attempted murder. Moran would have got a long prison sentence but wouldn't have been hanged for that crime. (The last hanging for attempted murder in England was in 1861—that was the year the law was changed.)winryweiss did suggest though that Watson’s date for ILLU might be wrong. Is it possible that this story actually takes place a lot closer to EMPT? But then why is Watson living in Queen Anne Street, rather than at his and Mary’s marital home or at Baker Street? winryweiss also suggested the possibility that Moran’s execution might have been delayed if there were other crimes he had been accused of. Must admit I don’t know anything about Victorian law. Would an execution have been delayed for over 8 years..?“The villain attached himself to the lady, and with such effect that he has completely and absolutely won her heart.” Why does Gruner want to marry Miss de Merville? He doesn’t love her—he talks about controlling her with hypnotism. And presumably he’s not that interested in her money—he’s a rich man himself. Is it just that whenever he wants a woman, he gets her by any means possible? (As Holmes says: “He has the collection mania in its most acute form…”) And for a woman of Miss de Merville’s position and personality, that has to be marriage. Then when he wants to get rid of her, he’ll murder her like his first wife.
Johnson, I grieve to say, made his name first as a very dangerous villain and served two terms at Parkhurst. Finally he repented and allied himself to Holmes… Why did Shinwell Johnson repent and ally himself to Holmes? It doesn’t seem to have improved his life in any way—he’s still part of the criminal underworld. As Miss Winter says: "Hell, London, gets me every time. Same address for Porky Shinwell.”
I had some pressing professional business of my own… What professional business? Was Watson perhaps in the process of buying a new practice?
“You have heard of post-hypnotic suggestion. Mr. Holmes? Well, you will see how it works, for a man of personality can use hypnotism without any vulgar passes or tomfoolery.” Has Gruner genuinely hypnotised Miss de Merville? As
vaysh pointed out last time, nobody tries to undo the hypnotic suggestion. Holmes certainly only tries to appeal to Miss de Merville’s rationality. “But what I am Adelbert Gruner made me.” I assume that Gruner took Miss Winter’s virginity and reputation, and when she left him, she became a prostitute. That’s bad enough, but there must be more to it. At her trial, such extenuating circumstances came out in the trial that the sentence, as will be remembered, was the lowest that was possible for such an offence.
vaysh came up with some fascinating thoughts last time (I hope she won’t mind if I quote her comments here): I was quite intrigued by this story - dealing with sexual violence against women, I think, even when it is never directly spelled out. I am sure Doyle's contemporaries, though, understood that Gruner is supposed to be sadist who not only takes women's virginity but rapes, tortures and mutilates them to satisfy his own perverted sexual pleasures...The descriptions of the effect of the vitriol on Gruner's face are described horribly - it's extremely well written. I don't think many people can read this scene without flinching and feeling the utter pain and horror that Gruner must have felt. Doyle emphasises it by having Gruner reach for Watson to help him. I did feel sympathy for him, in this moment...
But I don't think that was actually Doyle's intention. The story clearly is written in a way that is supposed to make us despise Gruner. But Doyle, a soundly Victorian writer, couldn't describe what the man did to the women he tortured, not in 1924...
It may that in an odd reversal of victim and perpetrator, Conan Doyle did try to bring across what great harm had been done to the women, by highlighting Gruner's suffering of the same deeds so emphatically.
laurose8 also suggested that Miss Winter may have experienced great pain through an illegal abortion—and I added to that that Gruner may have forced her to have the abortion.“The first thing is to exaggerate my injuries. They'll come to you for news. Put it on thick, Watson.” Has Holmes learnt his lesson after DYIN and FINA? He trusts Watson to act the part of worried friend, rather than misleading him and having him play the part for real.
But then we also have: There was a curious secretive streak in the man which led to many dramatic effects, but left even his closest friend guessing as to what his exact plans might be. Shouldn’t Holmes have told Watson what was going on? Watson has no idea he’s supposed to be keeping Gruner busy for as long as possible while Holmes burgles the place.
Three days later appeared a paragraph in the Morning Post to say that the marriage between Baron Adelbert Gruner and Miss Violet de Merville would not take place. What of Miss de Merville’s future? I would imagine finding out the truth about Gruner would shake her pretty badly. And what is Gruner’s future? He’s blinded and disfigured but he’s also rich and charming. Will he continue to prey on women?
Next Sunday, 21st February, we’ll be having a look at The Three Gables. Hope you can join us then.
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no subject
Date: 2016-02-14 02:33 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2016-02-14 03:48 pm (UTC)Miss Winter says: "Let me see this man in the mud, and I’ve got all I’ve worked for—in the mud with my foot on his cursed face." But I don't think he does end up in the mud. And now he's likely to treat women even worse than before, as a kind of revenge.
no subject
Date: 2016-02-14 06:02 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2016-02-14 06:54 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2016-02-15 05:51 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2016-02-15 08:37 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2016-02-14 06:46 pm (UTC)One can only hope that he decided to take his appetites to the professionals, and ran afoul of an effective pimp early.
no subject
Date: 2016-02-14 07:17 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2016-02-14 09:57 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2016-02-15 06:02 pm (UTC)It's interesting to me how ACD's work spans a couple of distinct periods in attitudes toward sexual violence (and domestic violence).
Histories of domestic violence identify this period as kind of a dark time, but this story seems to me to have more of an early Victorian feel (when sexual crimes were more strongly prosecuted) Kitty Winter had no real recourse under common law because she would have had to prove her resistance, but she got a tacit reduced sentence in recognition for her past suffering. That would actually have been less likely in the early 20th century.
no subject
Date: 2016-02-15 10:51 pm (UTC)This is so interesting - I didn't know that. It's so strange, isn't it? We always think of ourselves as becoming more and more enlightened but when we look at history we're really moving round in circles.
no subject
Date: 2016-02-15 11:19 pm (UTC)