Canon Discussion: Shoscombe Old Place
Mar. 27th, 2016 07:01 am![[identity profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/openid.png){kind=small}
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sherlock60Happy Easter, if you’re celebrating! This week we’re having a look at Shoscombe Old Place. I’ve typed up a few thoughts and questions to get the discussion going—please leave your own ideas in the comments!
I stooped to the eyepiece and focused for my vision. Is one or other of Holmes and Watson heading towards needing glasses..?
"In the St. Pancras case you may remember that a cap was found beside the dead policeman.” Any thoughts on this case? I’m assuming the suspect isn’t a professional criminal, as he’s described as a picture-frame maker. Why did he kill the policeman? Or is he indeed innocent, despite the cap?
“...my friend, Merivale, of the Yard…” Any thoughts on Merivale?
“By the way, Watson, you know something of racing?" "I ought to. I pay for it with about half my wound pension." I personally disagree with the well-established theory that Watson is an inveterate gambler. I think this is just a light-hearted exaggeration, and Watson is in control of his betting. It’s just entertainment to him. But I’m open to arguments—any thoughts? Last time we looked at DANC, I had a really interesting discussion with![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-userinfo.gif)
rachelindeed on the subject of Watson’s attitude to gambling and money. You can find the relevant thread with her thoughts here.
“He lives at Shoscombe Old Place, and I know it well, for my summer quarters were down there once.” “Summer quarters.” What exactly is Watson referring to? The New Annotated gives a few options: quarters during Watson’s time in the Army, quarters when he was a medical student, quarters for Mary and himself when Mary was ill.
“He's holding off the Jews till then.” I would imagine I’m not alone in finding this use of “Jews”—that is, the moneylenders, who may or may not actually be Jewish—a bit discomforting now. This article goes into the historical background behind the use of the term, and also looks at whether Holmes and Watson could be considered to be anti-Semitic. (The author does conclude that they’re not.)
"You say there is another man there. It must be one of your own stablemen, or someone from the house! Surely you have only to spot who it is and question him?" "It's no one I know." Carrie Evans/Norlett has been with Lady Falder for five years. Isn’t it odd that Mr. Mason should never have met her husband before? Last time,laurose8 did suggest the couple were separated—and that’s why Norlett didn’t seem too bothered about his wife having an affair with Sir Robert, and was happy to become involved in the plot and take Sir Robert’s money.
"It's the upper condyle of a human femur," said I. "Exactly!" Holmes had become very serious. Holmes suspects the bone may belong to Lady Falder. I know he likes to investigate on his own—but shouldn’t he have immediately gone to the police?
“Let us suppose, Watson — it is merely a scandalous supposition, a hypothesis put forward for argument's sake — that Sir Robert has done away with his sister." "My dear Holmes, it is out of the question." "Very possibly, Watson. Sir Robert is a man of an honourable stock. But you do occasionally find a carrion crow among the eagles.” This strikes me as rather an odd attitude from Holmes and Watson—Sir Robert is from a “good” family, so therefore he’s unlikely to be a murderer. It just seems a strangely conventional point of view from two men who must have seen an awful lot of the worst and best sides of human nature in all classes of people.
...a small rat-faced man with a disagreeably furtive manner… It has to be said that Norlett’s personality doesn’t yell “actor”. Any thoughts on his choice of career? Something he just fell into?
"It is easy to preach," said he. "Perhaps you would have felt differently if you had been in my position.” I have to say, I find it very difficult to feel sympathy for Sir Robert. He is responsible for his own misfortunes, and is a violent thug.
...the lucky owner got away scatheless from this strange incident in a career which has now outlived its shadows and promises to end in an honoured old age. Bit of a change in personality for Sir Robert at the end of his life. Did he really learn his lesson?
Playing the Game, this is the very last story about Holmes that Watson published. In 1927 he would have been an elderly man, which may have been reason enough to call a halt, but any thoughts about why he decided to stop..?
And with that, we come to the end of Round 4!thesmallhobbit and I would like to thank everyone who’s taken part—whether you were posting, commenting or just popping in to read. We’re so grateful to you all for keeping this community going.
Next week we will be starting Round 5, and this time we will be going in a rough chronological order (as suggested byalafaye).
We will be continuing to write 60s and we will still have the poetry page in a slightly altered form. The major change will be with the discussion post: the canon discussion is being retired and instead we will be discussing themes in the canon stories that relate to aspects of Victorian life.
So, next Sunday, 3rd April, we’re going right back to the beginning—with A Study in Scarlet: Part 1, Chapters 1-7.
Hope you can join us then!
I stooped to the eyepiece and focused for my vision. Is one or other of Holmes and Watson heading towards needing glasses..?
"In the St. Pancras case you may remember that a cap was found beside the dead policeman.” Any thoughts on this case? I’m assuming the suspect isn’t a professional criminal, as he’s described as a picture-frame maker. Why did he kill the policeman? Or is he indeed innocent, despite the cap?
“...my friend, Merivale, of the Yard…” Any thoughts on Merivale?
“By the way, Watson, you know something of racing?" "I ought to. I pay for it with about half my wound pension." I personally disagree with the well-established theory that Watson is an inveterate gambler. I think this is just a light-hearted exaggeration, and Watson is in control of his betting. It’s just entertainment to him. But I’m open to arguments—any thoughts? Last time we looked at DANC, I had a really interesting discussion with
rachelindeed on the subject of Watson’s attitude to gambling and money. You can find the relevant thread with her thoughts here. “He lives at Shoscombe Old Place, and I know it well, for my summer quarters were down there once.” “Summer quarters.” What exactly is Watson referring to? The New Annotated gives a few options: quarters during Watson’s time in the Army, quarters when he was a medical student, quarters for Mary and himself when Mary was ill.
“He's holding off the Jews till then.” I would imagine I’m not alone in finding this use of “Jews”—that is, the moneylenders, who may or may not actually be Jewish—a bit discomforting now. This article goes into the historical background behind the use of the term, and also looks at whether Holmes and Watson could be considered to be anti-Semitic. (The author does conclude that they’re not.)
"You say there is another man there. It must be one of your own stablemen, or someone from the house! Surely you have only to spot who it is and question him?" "It's no one I know." Carrie Evans/Norlett has been with Lady Falder for five years. Isn’t it odd that Mr. Mason should never have met her husband before? Last time,
laurose8 did suggest the couple were separated—and that’s why Norlett didn’t seem too bothered about his wife having an affair with Sir Robert, and was happy to become involved in the plot and take Sir Robert’s money."It's the upper condyle of a human femur," said I. "Exactly!" Holmes had become very serious. Holmes suspects the bone may belong to Lady Falder. I know he likes to investigate on his own—but shouldn’t he have immediately gone to the police?
“Let us suppose, Watson — it is merely a scandalous supposition, a hypothesis put forward for argument's sake — that Sir Robert has done away with his sister." "My dear Holmes, it is out of the question." "Very possibly, Watson. Sir Robert is a man of an honourable stock. But you do occasionally find a carrion crow among the eagles.” This strikes me as rather an odd attitude from Holmes and Watson—Sir Robert is from a “good” family, so therefore he’s unlikely to be a murderer. It just seems a strangely conventional point of view from two men who must have seen an awful lot of the worst and best sides of human nature in all classes of people.
...a small rat-faced man with a disagreeably furtive manner… It has to be said that Norlett’s personality doesn’t yell “actor”. Any thoughts on his choice of career? Something he just fell into?
"It is easy to preach," said he. "Perhaps you would have felt differently if you had been in my position.” I have to say, I find it very difficult to feel sympathy for Sir Robert. He is responsible for his own misfortunes, and is a violent thug.
...the lucky owner got away scatheless from this strange incident in a career which has now outlived its shadows and promises to end in an honoured old age. Bit of a change in personality for Sir Robert at the end of his life. Did he really learn his lesson?
Playing the Game, this is the very last story about Holmes that Watson published. In 1927 he would have been an elderly man, which may have been reason enough to call a halt, but any thoughts about why he decided to stop..?
And with that, we come to the end of Round 4!
thesmallhobbit and I would like to thank everyone who’s taken part—whether you were posting, commenting or just popping in to read. We’re so grateful to you all for keeping this community going.Next week we will be starting Round 5, and this time we will be going in a rough chronological order (as suggested by
alafaye). We will be continuing to write 60s and we will still have the poetry page in a slightly altered form. The major change will be with the discussion post: the canon discussion is being retired and instead we will be discussing themes in the canon stories that relate to aspects of Victorian life.
So, next Sunday, 3rd April, we’re going right back to the beginning—with A Study in Scarlet: Part 1, Chapters 1-7.
Hope you can join us then!
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no subject
Date: 2016-03-27 04:32 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2016-03-27 08:32 pm (UTC)Thinking about it, Holmes doesn't really get any information about racing from Watson. Watson just tells him about Sir Robert and Shoscombe Park - which comes under the heading more of general knowledge. It's surprising really that Holmes hasn't heard of Sir Robert himself.
no subject
Date: 2016-03-27 06:29 pm (UTC)Actually, my main contribution to this discussion is yet another question. Sir Robert dishonoured the old graves of the Falders, and destroyed their bodies. I belive in those times it would have been even more serious, since some felt that some scrap of corpse was needed on Judgement Day. Sir Robert also swindled the heirs out of their rent money. Yet the Falders don't seem to have taken any action at all. I did wonder if 'honourable old age' was meant to be ironic (I've just read in an Aird that sarcasm is a boomerang.) Certainly I'm inclined to think Watson's protest against suspecting a nobleman is put in the story to lead to Holmes' answer.
Sir Robert being huge and a jockey does stand out. I was going to suggest that some of that huge was fat. Hard fat, mind you. Whatever the answer, I'd bet the competition was exceptionally weak.
no subject
Date: 2016-03-27 08:42 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2016-03-27 09:04 pm (UTC)And I didn't know that about jockeys - that the ones for steeplechases are bigger than the ones for flat races.
no subject
Date: 2016-03-27 08:54 pm (UTC)Sir Robert dishonoured the old graves of the Falders, and destroyed their bodies. I belive in those times it would have been even more serious, since some felt that some scrap of corpse was needed on Judgement Day. Sir Robert also swindled the heirs out of their rent money. Yet the Falders don't seem to have taken any action at all.
A couple of very good points. Even if the living Falders didn't actually believe that the remains were needed for Judgment Day, I think they would have been pretty annoyed that Sir Robert had taken it upon himself to destroy the body of one of their ancestors. And Lady Falder's brother-in-law would have been annoyed he hadn't immediately been allowed to claim his inheritance.
But Sir Robert did only keep his sister's death secret for about a week. And the body was hundreds of years old - hard to have a strong emotional reaction to its destruction. I would guess Lady Falder's brother-in-law just wanted to avoid any more scandal and let it all go.