Canon Discussion: The Three Garridebs
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sherlock60This week we’re having a look at The Three Garridebs. I’ve typed up a few thoughts and questions to get the discussion going—please leave your own ideas in the comments!
...Holmes refused a knighthood for services which may perhaps some day be described. Any thoughts?
...the date, which was the latter end of June, 1902… In this story we get an intense moment of affection between Holmes and Watson. And yet, in ILLU, which takes place three months later in September 1902, Watson is abruptly living away from Baker Street after living there with Holmes for the previous eight years. Yes, ACD was making it up as he went along, and he changed Watson’s circumstances depending on what the story required. But playing the Game, it’s rather suggestive. In ILLU, Holmes and Watson’s friendship seems perfectly intact—but they just aren’t sharing lodgings any more. And oddly, Watson is only living about a mile from Baker Street.
Any ideas? Some kind of declaration from one man that the other man found hard to deal with? A 60 from![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-userinfo.gif)
vaysh gives one suggestion. Could it be that Watson was already planning to move out before 3GAR happened? Was he indeed leaving to get married again, as Holmes appears to tell us in BLAN? The last time we discussed 3GAR, winryweiss suggested that perhaps the gunshot wound was worse than Watson let on in the story. And he had to move elsewhere because all the steps in Baker Street were too much for him.
"Have you ever heard the name of Garrideb?" Sherlock Peoria gives us an amusing look at the ‘etymology’ of the name.
"Mr. Holmes?" he asked, glancing from one to the other. "Ah, yes! Your pictures are not unlike you, sir, if I may say so.” Do Holmes and Watson look like each other? No, wait—bear with me. In the illustrations (and indeed in TV and film adaptations) Holmes and Watson look significantly different. But maybe this is just for ease of identification and to make an interesting image. In real life we do tend to favour people who look like us. I mean, couples in general tend to resemble siblings. (Though I’m not suggesting Holmes and Watson are necessarily a couple.)
From the descriptions we have of Holmes and the description of Watson we have from CHAS, they do seem to have different builds. But ‘John Garrideb’ can’t instantly pick out Holmes—he has to consider both men first. So are they facially similar? Are the illustrations of Holmes faithful but not Watson’s—because he looks too much like Holmes?
“Just ring him up, Watson." Holmes must have been keen to get a telephone. 3GAR begins in “the latter end of June, 1902” and according to Exploring 20th Century London: “London's first telephone exchange opened on 1 March 1902 near Blackfriars.”
“[Killer Evans] Escaped from penitentiary through political influence.” That’s rather an intriguing statement. Any thoughts?
It was worth a wound — it was worth many wounds — to know the depth of loyalty and love which lay behind that cold mask… For the one and only time I caught a glimpse of a great heart as well as of a great brain. “For the one and only time”..? Is this possible? But perhaps the relevant words in those two sentences are “depth” and “great”. Watson must surely have been aware of Holmes’ affection towards him over the years, but they are both men who keep their cards close to their chest. However, in the reaction to the gunshot wound, Watson has clear proof for once that Holmes loves him.
“If you had killed Watson, you would not have got out of this room alive.” What exactly does Holmes mean by this? Does he perhaps not mean it literally—is it just a way of saying, “I bloody love that man, and I’m really quite upset that you attempted to murder him”? Or perhaps he meant that if had been immediately apparent Watson had been fatally shot, then Holmes would have shot and killed Evans, rather than attempt to incapacitate him?
What I love most about Holmes is his nobility, and his concern for those weaker than himself. Surely, even if Watson had bled to death in his arms, he wouldn’t then have gone and shot a stunned and helpless Evans. Would he?
We heard later that our poor old friend never got over the shock of his dissipated dreams. This does feel like an out of the blue ending for Nathan Garrideb. It must have been a huge disappointment, and Garrideb was eccentric and isolated—but going into a nursing home over it?
Next Sunday, 14th February, we’ll be having a look at The Illustrious Client. Hope you can join us then.
...Holmes refused a knighthood for services which may perhaps some day be described. Any thoughts?
...the date, which was the latter end of June, 1902… In this story we get an intense moment of affection between Holmes and Watson. And yet, in ILLU, which takes place three months later in September 1902, Watson is abruptly living away from Baker Street after living there with Holmes for the previous eight years. Yes, ACD was making it up as he went along, and he changed Watson’s circumstances depending on what the story required. But playing the Game, it’s rather suggestive. In ILLU, Holmes and Watson’s friendship seems perfectly intact—but they just aren’t sharing lodgings any more. And oddly, Watson is only living about a mile from Baker Street.
Any ideas? Some kind of declaration from one man that the other man found hard to deal with? A 60 from
vaysh gives one suggestion. Could it be that Watson was already planning to move out before 3GAR happened? Was he indeed leaving to get married again, as Holmes appears to tell us in BLAN? The last time we discussed 3GAR, winryweiss suggested that perhaps the gunshot wound was worse than Watson let on in the story. And he had to move elsewhere because all the steps in Baker Street were too much for him."Have you ever heard the name of Garrideb?" Sherlock Peoria gives us an amusing look at the ‘etymology’ of the name.
"Mr. Holmes?" he asked, glancing from one to the other. "Ah, yes! Your pictures are not unlike you, sir, if I may say so.” Do Holmes and Watson look like each other? No, wait—bear with me. In the illustrations (and indeed in TV and film adaptations) Holmes and Watson look significantly different. But maybe this is just for ease of identification and to make an interesting image. In real life we do tend to favour people who look like us. I mean, couples in general tend to resemble siblings. (Though I’m not suggesting Holmes and Watson are necessarily a couple.)
From the descriptions we have of Holmes and the description of Watson we have from CHAS, they do seem to have different builds. But ‘John Garrideb’ can’t instantly pick out Holmes—he has to consider both men first. So are they facially similar? Are the illustrations of Holmes faithful but not Watson’s—because he looks too much like Holmes?
“Just ring him up, Watson." Holmes must have been keen to get a telephone. 3GAR begins in “the latter end of June, 1902” and according to Exploring 20th Century London: “London's first telephone exchange opened on 1 March 1902 near Blackfriars.”
“[Killer Evans] Escaped from penitentiary through political influence.” That’s rather an intriguing statement. Any thoughts?
It was worth a wound — it was worth many wounds — to know the depth of loyalty and love which lay behind that cold mask… For the one and only time I caught a glimpse of a great heart as well as of a great brain. “For the one and only time”..? Is this possible? But perhaps the relevant words in those two sentences are “depth” and “great”. Watson must surely have been aware of Holmes’ affection towards him over the years, but they are both men who keep their cards close to their chest. However, in the reaction to the gunshot wound, Watson has clear proof for once that Holmes loves him.
“If you had killed Watson, you would not have got out of this room alive.” What exactly does Holmes mean by this? Does he perhaps not mean it literally—is it just a way of saying, “I bloody love that man, and I’m really quite upset that you attempted to murder him”? Or perhaps he meant that if had been immediately apparent Watson had been fatally shot, then Holmes would have shot and killed Evans, rather than attempt to incapacitate him?
What I love most about Holmes is his nobility, and his concern for those weaker than himself. Surely, even if Watson had bled to death in his arms, he wouldn’t then have gone and shot a stunned and helpless Evans. Would he?
We heard later that our poor old friend never got over the shock of his dissipated dreams. This does feel like an out of the blue ending for Nathan Garrideb. It must have been a huge disappointment, and Garrideb was eccentric and isolated—but going into a nursing home over it?
Next Sunday, 14th February, we’ll be having a look at The Illustrious Client. Hope you can join us then.
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no subject
Date: 2016-02-07 11:37 am (UTC)...Also, since they clearly must have had a right good pashing just after Watson saw to his own wound (which made Holmes swoon at the sheer manliness of it all), I am sure that Watson made up all this "haven't seen each other" for the purposes of publishing. Just for the sake of the reading public's sensibilities.
no subject
Date: 2016-02-07 02:08 pm (UTC)My answer was to rise from the table. “You are right, Holmes. We are bound to go.” He sprang up and shook me by the hand. “I knew you would not shrink at the last,” said he, and for a moment I saw something in his eyes which was nearer to tenderness than I had ever seen. The next instant he was his masterful, practical self once more.
I suppose ACD was falling back on old ideas a bit - though I don't feel 3GAR suffers because of that. It's an engaging enough story.
And that's a lovely thought - that Watson felt he'd given too much away in 3GAR, and was only trying to protect them later on, when he said they'd started living apart.
no subject
Date: 2016-02-07 05:08 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2016-02-07 01:15 pm (UTC)Holmes was angry Evans had cold-bloodedly shot Watson, who he is very close to (even if not 'that' close). If Watson had been shot dead I suspect Holmes would have shot Evans - which would have been justifiable also as self-defence, even if Holmes didn't think of it that way.
And this is when my way works perfectly *g* Watson bleeds to death, Holmes shoots Evans, informs Lestrade, having removed the temptation for Lestrade to kill Evans. Everyone assumes it's self-defence, no questions asked.
no subject
Date: 2016-02-07 02:18 pm (UTC)If Holmes shot Evans immediately while he was still armed, then I would accept that was self-defence and justified. But Holmes incapacitates and disarms Evans before going to help Watson. I couldn't face Holmes going back and shooting an unarmed and stunned man - it revolts me. It goes against everything I admire about Holmes.
But in a sense, it would be easier to bear if Holmes was doing it partly to save Lestrade from himself.
no subject
Date: 2016-02-07 02:33 pm (UTC)Of course, we only have Watson's words for all this - and he might have been delirious from pain all the way through.
no subject
Date: 2016-02-07 05:09 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2016-02-07 05:52 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2016-02-08 12:05 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2016-02-07 05:33 pm (UTC)Thanks, too, for pointing out how characteristically eager Holmes was to get a phone.
no subject
Date: 2016-02-07 09:00 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2016-02-07 08:45 pm (UTC)In general I am angst-averse, so I am content either imagining them both happy with friendship or both happy as lovers, but I don't want to imagine one of them wanting more and being rejected. That's not for me!
Garrideb -- given that I've just argued that Watson must have changed the participants' real names in these publications, "Garrideb" becomes Watson's invention. It's his idea of an eccentric, unusual, somewhat silly name. Perhaps a chance to emulate Charles Dickens and name his characters in outlandish ways that, through their sound, give an idea of the personalities they are attached to. Watson says at the beginning of the story that to his mind it has elements of comedy. It's never seemed very funny to me, but perhaps this is an invitation to read the text for signs of Watson's dry sense of humor, quietly on display in the details he alters or invents. The Garrideb case probably bears similarities to the real case that Holmes solved, but perhaps Watson also writes it at least in part as a joke, noting the odd thinness of the plot and poking a bit of fun at it.
The one and only time -- I take this to mean that this was the most extreme display of emotion that Holmes ever made toward Watson. He looks back on it as the moment in which they were most unguarded with one another. They shared the quiet, everyday intimacies of working and living together for years and of course felt confident in each other's affection, but outbursts of this level of passionate emotion were, it seems, vanishingly rare. Clearly Watson values the memory highly.
"you would not have got out of this room alive" -- I'm afraid that I think Holmes means it literally, in that moment. The whole tenor of the scene suggests to me that he is imagining himself making a revenge killing, not a self-defense killing. But he is of course speaking in a moment of extreme emotion, and fortunately he was never actually put in a situation where he would have been tempted to follow through on that kind of threat. Everybody in that room dodged a bullet that night.
Who knows if he would really have done it? I suspect that were Watson truly dying Holmes would have no attention to spare for Evans and he would have had plenty of time to run away before Holmes recovered from the paralysis of his despair. And of course words spoken in a state of fury are no trustworthy guide to what real actions any person would take. I find it very telling that, even though Holmes is armed with a gun, he does not fire on Evans once the man starts shooting at him and Watson. Instead he chooses to risk getting shot himself by rushing the man and he uses his gun to hit Evans rather than shoot him, and uses non-lethal force to disarm and subdue him even in a life-or-death situation of self-defense where both his and Watson's safety are at stake. So I think he clearly has deeply rooted instincts against excessive or directly lethal violence. Do I think it possible that Watson's murder would have provoked him to do something terrible? Yes, I think it very possible. Perhaps that is one reason he is so afraid of his own capacity for powerful emotion -- he is afraid of what he might be capable of. But fortunately for all concerned his actual actions were not immoral in the least. They made it through the crisis and thankfully nothing so dire ever happened again. Plus Watson sees how profoundly he is loved, which is pretty amazing.
no subject
Date: 2016-02-08 04:59 pm (UTC)I tend to distrust Watson's dates more than anything else… This is a very good point. There are some of Watson’s clearly stated dates in other stories that I certainly don’t accept, so I shouldn’t necessarily accept the dates in 3GAR and ILLU.
In general I am angst-averse… Oh, yes - me too ^^” (Though always willing to have my mind changed by a skilful writer.) I tend to go with what Watson presents us with - they drift apart but their friendship remains essentially intact. And maybe after WW1, they start living together again. But I am happy also to accept that Watson is maybe being discreet and straightforwardly lying to us about his domestic arrangements.
Watson says at the beginning of the story that to his mind it has elements of comedy. It's never seemed very funny to me… I agree with you there. And I’m persuaded by your thoughts on Watson quietly poking fun at the story. Perhaps he’s aware that only he (and maybe Holmes) will ever fully get the joke.
He looks back on it as the moment in which they were most unguarded with one another. That works for me. As I said in the post, I think both Holmes and Watson keep their cards very close to their chests. But then they are a pair of Victorian, British gentlemen ^^
"you would not have got out of this room alive" -- I'm afraid that I think Holmes means it literally, in that moment. I suppose I always put Holmes up on a pedestal - I’m happy for him to show his humanity in terms of demonstrating his love for Watson, but I flinch at him having the negative aspects of being human too - having the capacity to do dreadful things. I want him to be a better person than the rest of us, which is unfair to him. But I do take comfort in the fact he instinctively incapacitated Evans, rather than shooting him in self-defence.
no subject
Date: 2016-02-08 07:47 am (UTC)Frankly, Evans getting sprung from jail by knowing the right politicians is the sort of thing that's still going on today in Chicago - if he did a favor to a corrupt cop or two they'd look the other way while he lined up an escape plan.
If we're to take ACD's goofy-ass dates as gospel, the idea that Watson moved out to live in other rooms within months of this case could have been triggered by that attack. Perhaps things got awkward between them after such a naked revelation, and one or the other party couldn't handle the change. Or they may have had a fight over Holmes ordering Watson not to come with him on the next case and Watson telling Holmes where he could stick his sudden protectiveness.
(In the BBC Radio adaptation of 3GAR Watson tells Holmes he's getting remarried, during the scene where Watson is bandaging his own bullet wound; it's their explanation of the move to Queen Anne St. While it does fit in with the arc of the stories done at that time, it also feels like a frantic bout of backpedaling heteronormativity to counteract Holmes' outburst - the way a "Starsky & Hutch" episode could have the two men very emotionally intimate with each other and then end with them dating two forgettable and interchangeable young women to reassure the viewers that They're Not That Way.)
As for Holmes' threat to Evans? I really, truly believe that something bad happening to Watson is Holmes' Berserk Button - the one thing that could make him commit murder in the hot blood of revenge. He'd turn himself in to face prison or the rope afterward, but with no remorse.
Nathan's own fate is far unhappier. But perhaps it wasn't the case itself but an ongoing inability to function in the outside world that sent him to a nursing home, or a gradual bout of dementia exacerbated by the shock of throwing him into a stressful few days out of his routine.
no subject
Date: 2016-02-08 05:29 pm (UTC)I even did one really far-out AU where Holmes reacts with reserve when Watson's hit… I’ve just read “Fixed It For You” ^^ It’s rather believable actually, isn’t it? Holmes keeping his cool. I suppose in the canon version, Watson is perfectly right - we are seeing part of Holmes that we don’t normally see.
Frankly, Evans getting sprung from jail by knowing the right politicians is the sort of thing that's still going on today in Chicago - if he did a favor to a corrupt cop or two they'd look the other way while he lined up an escape plan. It just surprises me a little with reference to Evans. He seems so unimportant - just a petty criminal, with a tendency to get in gun fights and kill people. But perhaps that’s just how he seems in England.
Perhaps things got awkward between them after such a naked revelation… Yes, that’s a very interesting thought - no big declaration afterwards; it was simply the fact it had happened that changed things. ...they may have had a fight over Holmes ordering Watson not to come with him on the next case and Watson telling Holmes where he could stick his sudden protectiveness. Again, that’s not something I’d considered before - Holmes suddenly becoming aware how vulnerable Watson was.
As for Holmes' threat to Evans? I really, truly believe that something bad happening to Watson is Holmes' Berserk Button - the one thing that could make him commit murder in the hot blood of revenge. He'd turn himself in to face prison or the rope afterward, but with no remorse. As I’ve said to rachelindeed, I perhaps put Holmes up on a pedestal - I’m happy for him to show his humanity in terms of demonstrating his love for Watson, but I flinch at him having the negative aspects of being human too. I want him to be a better person than the rest of us, which is unfair to him. I have to accept that Holmes might have lost control and murdered Evans if Watson had died. Thank God it didn’t come to that for everyone’s sake.